Michael Gomes of Topcon Agriculture leads a panel discussion about current and future trends in the agriculture industry and the resulting impact on farmers around the world. To learn more about 13 trends that are shaping the future of farming, download The Future of Food Production white paper at www.topconpositioning.com/futureoffood.
Michael Gomes of Topcon Agriculture leads a panel discussion about current and future trends in the agriculture industry and the resulting impact on farmers around the world. To learn more about 13 trends that are shaping the future of farming, download The Future of Food Production white paper at www.topconpositioning.com/futureoffood.
Hello, I'm Mike Gomes, vice president of strategic business development for Topcon agriculture. And I'm a guest host today on Topcon talks agriculture today. I'm very excited about our discussion and our guests. Today's topic is about the future of food production systems and a very interesting project that was done by the AEM, the association of equipment manufacturers. So we've got two guests today, the first of which is Kurt blades and the second of which is grant good from AGCO. And so I'll let them introduce themselves. Kurt, why don't you go first?
Speaker 2:Perfect. Thanks Mike. And thanks for having me on, uh, my name's Kurt blades. I serve as senior vice president for industry sectors and product leadership for the association of equipment manufacturers. So by that role, that has me overseeing the five sectors that AEM represents ag construction, forestry, mining, and utilities. But then that also gets me involved with some really interesting projects like working with regulators and policy makers to help making sure that our products can be sold and every mark in around the world.
Speaker 1:Thanks very much for making the time to speak with us and our listenership today and grant, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you're doing at AGCO?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Thanks Mike. Uh, pleasure to be here. So I am our, uh, director for what we call global smart ag engineering. Uh, smart ag is kind of our branch of engineering for, uh, creating new value streams for AGCO. So been with AGCO for 15 years and, uh, was born and raised on a farm in, uh, Northeast Kansas, where we had diversified livestock and cropping operation been passionate about ag my whole life. So really, really happy to be here today. Talking about this, uh, uh, white paper from the AEM.
Speaker 1:Let's get into that a little bit. Kurt, can you tell us a little bit about how the future of food production systems white paper came about? Why did AEM put this together?
Speaker 2:You know, the association of equipment manufacturers has for a number of years had, uh, you know, a, a desire to be in the thought leadership business, or we wanted to make sure that we are provided our members with, uh, you know, good thinking pieces. And we have got a structure that allows us to happen. One of these is called the futures council. So we actually, uh, representing, you know, the five sectors that I referred to earlier, ag construction, forestry, mining utility. What we really wanted to do was frame up really one of those kind of bigger issues that are happening within our industries. So we can make sure that our members are, uh, are able to respond appropriately. So the, today we're gonna be talking about the future of food production study, but there's a very similar version of this that we created for the construction side of our business, the future of buildings. And the idea on both of these is to look at the 10 year horizon to say, what's gonna happen within our industry because of technology that's happening or societal changes or policy or you name it. That really gives us a nice roadmap, uh, to, you know, to, to recognize our world's changing. And the industries that we represent are also gonna be changing as well.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. And so Kurt, how did you put together this group? How did you put together the group of people that, that did this?
Speaker 2:So what makes this kind of unique? What AEM does really well is we get, we get groups of people together, and there's lots of discussions about, you know, future looking topics. I mean, you can't, you can find lots of amount that where people pro prognosticating what the future's going to hold. What makes this particular study unique is the fact that we assembled about 20 experts from around the industry representing various AEM members, uh, that we're kind of hand selected by either by their companies or, or, uh, or by us directly through AEM that really have a pension for what the future is going to hold, but also have a, uh, a pretty good, uh, grasp on their unique aspect of the industry. So the process was these, uh, this group of kind of a think tank got together over the course of really the last 18 months and discussed trends, ideas, put them down on paper, debated'em as a group, and really came up with what we're, uh, what are we gonna be talking about here today, which were 13 trends that are really, uh, kind of immutable. Those are things that are gonna shape our world and how Fu food production is, uh, uh, is going to change over the next 10 years.
Speaker 1:Great. And grant, you've been involved with this group kind of since the inception. And so why don't you talk to us a little bit about your perspective, both coming from AGCO on the smart agriculture side, and then how you saw the, the development of this white paper?
Speaker 3:Sure. Mike, so, um, like you say, I've been involved with the, the, the future of food discussions, uh, from the very beginning was really an honor to, to be a part of the conversation. And, and really, it was just a lot of collaboration, a lot of really good collaboration and leadership by the AEM to, uh, take some methods from the futures Institute, facilitated by the AEM and get some of those thought leaders from, uh, various companies together to, to shape these trends and really evolve, you know, from those trends into, into kind of what that meant for, for our growers, for the ag industry. I mean, ultimately for the equipment manufacturers. So it was really interesting process to be a part of, uh, really thought provoking and certainly had a lot of, uh, good discussion around these, uh, around these topics. Um, one of the interesting things I thought was there were a lot of underlying trends, you know, had these many points, but, uh, kept kind of circling back around to a lot of common themes. And I think you've done a good job today too, of, of, uh, plucking out some of those themes for us to discuss.
Speaker 1:That's a great point grant. So the white paper actually put together 13 different trends that we had talked about. And, and so I, I just tried to put some of those things together in what we would consider common themes. And so I guess the one first common theme that really jumped out at me was really the idea of doing more with less. And it's the idea that, you know, over the next 10 years, agriculturalists are gonna have to produce more with a lighter or less environmental impact as well as optimization of water use, as well as elements, a kind of the global demand for protein grant, as you are working so much with planters and certainly coming from Kansas and a Kansas farm, how do you see that trend kind of fitting in?
Speaker 3:Sure. So really Mike, you know, as we look at doing more with less, that's really not a new concept to, to our growers at all. I mean, we've been doing that for, for centuries really, um, in agriculture. So like you mentioned, you know, here in the Midwest, uh, certainly we have some constraints with water. We've got, uh, um, you know, always economics is, is a challenge for our growers trying to, trying to optimize things, but really you look at the, the evolution over the next 10 years, we think, um, you'll see more widespread adoption probably of precision agriculture, um, whether that's variable rate technologies, variable hybrids, trying to get the, you know, the best seed for the, for the best acre or, you know, technologies such as sea and spray where we're seeing, you know, potential to reduce chemical use of certain herbicides in certain applications by, you know, over two thirds. So really there's, there's a lot of opportunities to, to do more with less. I think two, you know, you mentioned the, the, uh, global meat consumption increase and, you know, we look at the, the expanding third world and the, the, this increasing standard of living and really you have this interesting dichotomy where we have more protein consumption in those areas of the world. But then in our more developed nations, we've got maybe alternative, uh, protein sources being consumed. So really, you know, as we look at that, there's gonna be more demand for every acre to be productive, because whether it's, you know, using soy for protein, for alternative, uh, meats, or if it's, uh, feeding, you know, livestock and that feed to gain ratio that we see that it takes multiple pounds of grain to raise one pound of beef. Um, we've really got a, a growing demand, um, with the world's population expanding over the next 10 years or continuing to expand, and a lot of, uh, challenge there for our farmers to meet, which again is certainly nothing new,
Speaker 1:Good stuff, good stuff. Kurt, from the industry's perspective, what was your take on how these, some of these things were coming together and the idea of doing more with less or where you see that taking us over the next 10 years?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll tell you the, uh, the biggest surprise that I had in this whole exercise when discussing the, uh, the trends was the, the, the heavy discussion on water scarcity. And in fact, when we talked about what was the, the first thing that came up, we could all agree on was that water is a challenge. And that was actually a little bit surprising to me, but it, but it absolutely makes sense. I'm sitting in here in Wisconsin where, you know, if you look out my window behind you, you see a lot of green plants. Uh, but if you're in California, you know, Mike, where, where you're, where you are today, obviously there's regulations that are coming daily about water scarcity and doing, doing more with less, or where grant is in, in Kansas. And even some of those lands in Western Kansas, where we've been growing, uh, corn, where normally we hadn't in the past. I think the water scarcity is a very, very real thing. So that's a practical thing, but we, the, but the general idea of growing more with less is just absolutely, uh, you know, again, as, as grant said before, agriculture's been doing that for centuries, uh, we've been doing it for centuries because farmers recognize that's the way to be efficient. Uh, we make a little bit more money because we spend a little bit less on inputs. Now, all of a sudden you put environmental constraints in there, or pressure, uh, from consumers or even, uh, you know, the need to do more with less because of, because of water scarcity, all of a sudden it opens up a pathway for technology like we've never seen before. So what normally was an economic decision for a farmer to invest in new technologies? All of a sudden becomes a, uh, a triple bottom line. They're gonna make a little bit of more money because they're doing things more efficiently, but also because we're producing more with less input, we've, uh, reduced our carbon footprint in a pretty remarkable way. And we're actually able to tell really good story about, you know, just feeding the world in a general, uh, a general, you know, positive way because population is growing and there's no more resources coming to our, you know, for us to grow those crops on right now.
Speaker 1:That's pretty significant. Uh, the other thing is just talking a little bit about really traceability and as we're continuing to produce more food, fiber and fuel through renewable and sustainable sources like agriculture, you know, we're talking a little bit about traceability and shorter supply chains and some of those kinds of things. And so Kurt, you want to talk a little bit about how you see AAM membership being affected by this, or how this came out in the paper?
Speaker 2:Well, what, what we started talking about was this whole general idea of consumers, caring a little bit more about where their food comes from. This has been going on for years, but what has happened and what is gonna be happening in the next 10 years is that the technology is allowing that traceability to exist. Like it never has before. So that, you know, whether it's blockchain technology that allows for a full transparency of the supply chain or whether it's because the sensor technology that is on a tractor today that wasn't there before, uh, that's all going up to the cloud, doing other things doesn't really matter. The reasons the, the, the reality is we can do more traceability now than we ever have been able to in the past. And consumers are demanding it couple that with this whole idea of a shorter supply chain, which is, you know, there's consumers certainly want to know that their food they're consuming is, is produced with the most efficiently possible, the less, uh, impact on the land. And that also is, is including transportation costs and other things like that. So shortening that supply chain may mean, you know, uh, things, whether they're grown in vertically or, or produced more locally, uh, because of consumer demands or because efficiency demands. It becomes very interesting to see how this, how this comes into play. So how does this relate to AEM members? Well, Topcon as an AEM member and Adco as an AEM member are very much at the forefront of this technology that, uh, uh, farmers are implementing to collect that data at the very field level, uh, whether it's planting or spraying or harvesting that data starts at the field level and AEM members are smack data in the center of that entire conversation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And that's one of the, probably the biggest things that I see in the industry is it's that data that becomes basically just documentation of practice and, and most farmers are doing absolutely the right things, the right things for the environment, as well as for the economics of their, of their, their business. And so you certainly see that grant, how do you see it because you are, you know, being there in Kansas and, and certainly in the line of business that you are, you, you get a front row view of a lot of these things and particularly as they're moving forward.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. Mike, so, so I really agree with a lot of what Kurt said and, and, you know, certainly this is not a brand new trend. I think we've been seeing consumers wanna be closer to their food for, for several years now we saw the pandemic really press the accelerator on that. I mean, for generations, we haven't really been food insecure for most people in the us. And I think for the first time for a lot of people, we saw the shelves bear, you know, in a lot of areas, especially in the meat aisle. So I think you saw a lot of people express, you know, wanting to be closer to that, uh, food security closer to, to that by, you know, you saw local locker appointments being out two years during the pandemic, you saw, you know, local farmers phones ringing off the hook for individual animals. You saw freezers deep freezers being in shortage because people wanted to, to know that they had meat on hand for their family kind when a freezer full. So, so I think that's really interesting. I think the, the traceability piece, certainly too, just to, you know, aside from just being closer to, to your meat and, or closer to your, to your food and your produce, you know, the traceability piece and really that accountability that, that builds into the system, I think is gonna be a good thing, whether it's vegetables, romaine lettuce, uh, um, you know, I think we've seen some improvements there in the recall processes and procedures. That's something that traceability certainly enables to be much more efficient so that we're not, uh, maybe scrapping, you know, tons and tons and tons of, uh, of produce, uh, when we could target those, uh, recalls much more specifically if there's a problem identified in the food supply chain. So, uh, certainly an area that I think is gonna evolve, certainly an area that, uh, there is a lot of opportunity for value add and, uh, value preservation, uh, through the supply chain.
Speaker 1:Right. And I, I think you did a great job of touching base on one of the things that we certainly see and that's elements of the digital divide and how importance connectivity is to our industry and to outdoor industries, as they're beginning to use some of these tools. Do you have any thoughts on that one?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I really do. I mean, really connectivity's, I think certainly an enabler for a lot of this traceability, and as we see that pull, connectivity's just gonna be more and more important. We look at, uh, you know, being able to pass that data from the point it's collected to the cloud, to these downstream off board systems to preserve that data. Certainly, you know, as we see, you know, rural broadband or access to, uh, cellular data, you know, becoming problems, uh, in certain areas, I think we're gonna see that shrink as we expand our infrastructure in the us, uh, and really the need is gonna be there. It's, it's not gonna be a matter of if you do it, it's, it's, it's gonna be a requirement. I think in a lot of cases and whether that be from the economic side, like we see in certain cases, maybe with Walmart contracts, things like that, or potentially even from the regulatory side, it's gonna be really important to, to have that data synced up in lifetime for, you know, the, the use, uh, throughout the, the supply chain.
Speaker 1:Excellent. And, and Kurt in your capacity, you talk to agriculture, but as well as other industries, talk to us a little bit about how you see it from the manufacturer side and, and how you see connectivity in the digital divide coming together.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, first of all, I think, you know, here in the United States, we've been, you know, pretty blessed with a, uh, a recent infrastructure bill that puts a whole lot of emphasis on helping to close that digital divide, uh, both, uh, you know, between, you know, haves and haves nots of, of connectivity, but more specifically, and I think relevant for your audience here is a focus in, on rural, uh, areas and rural broadband specifically, uh, you know, grant mentioned, uh, you know, a little bit about having wireless connectivity. I think you wanna hit on that just a little bit more is that, uh, you know, where, where we as am and pretty, pretty adamant in anyone that will listen, will talk about how, you know, wireless or excuse me, broadband in rural areas is not limited to the anchor institutions. It really needs to be wireless in the field, because when you think about all of the technologies that we've talked about so far today on this podcast, really, uh, just explode when you have constant on, uh, wireless connectivity and when a, when a, uh, a tractor or a combine or sprayer or whatever it is constantly, uh, communicating into the, into the cloud. It can, it's amazing what we'll be able to, to do with that, whether it's our artificial intelligence or, uh, other things that can come, come as a result from that. But having said that those technologies can only happen if that digital divide is met. And it seems like there's a lot of attention being paid to that. So I feel optimistic in the next 10 years, we're gonna really close that gap in a big way. So that gets the connectivity piece in here. But the other piece that, that, uh, we also have to address is, uh, you know, that that might require an upgrade of, uh, of equipment. And whether it's an upgrade of tractors, combines sprayers, whatever to take full advantage of this technology. And so that's the second piece of that is making sure that the business models of a farmer are, are enough to be able to support purchasing new equipment, and that there are ways in which, uh, farmers can access this equipment and access all of this technology that really lives up to the promise of producing more with less.
Speaker 3:Those are great points, Kurt. And I think, you know, it's not too just the, the presence of the coverage, it's the quality and the size of the pipeline too, as we look at 5g and the amount of data that we're, you know, generating through machine learning through all these new data acquisition technologies and really putting more and better decision tools in the farmer's hands it's, uh, this infrastructure's really, really gonna be a big deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's amazing how, uh, when having these conversations early on and Mike, you're very familiar with this when talking with, with regulators about rural broadband is that, uh, you know, those that aren't familiar with agriculture, think of it as a down link. Like, how do I make sure I can get, you know, Netflix to play in my, in my tractor cabs? Like, no, that's not what we want. We want up and down speeds the same, uh, the same speed that pipe's gotta be big, but most importantly, it's gotta be constant because the minute you lose that little bit of connectivity in a blind spot, you've kind of lost some of the, the real benefits that we're trying to gain with this technology. So this digital divide is an interesting one for us to dive into it holds a tremendous amount of promise when we get it solved though.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I guess that's one of the things that I see is, is that, you know, with the era of smart implements, which we see we're very much in the middle of now. And so between those smart implements connected to a tractor, oftentimes using the ISO bus standard, um, and creating that data, it's, it's doing some unique things, right? And, and so it might not be a hundred percent dependent on connectivity because we're out what they call on the edge where the tractor implement combination is working, but certainly you can see where that's going grant. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that, how you see pieces of that coming together?
Speaker 3:Well, sure. Mike, I think we're starting to, starting to realize, as you mentioned, you know, implements getting smarter. I mean, a lot of people, I think view ACO as a tractor company traditionally, and, you know, sometimes we say inside, you know, nobody goes tractoring. So it's really important to have that implement, uh, being smart and, and really being able to, to play a more active role in driving the operation, whether that be through things like, uh, tractor implement management, um, or being, you know, much more smart in the agronomic sense of collecting data. Um, maybe through a single pass in the field, rather than having to go grid sampling, or spend additional time, labor and resources that are already in short supply to gather some of that data and make better decisions and, and circle back around to that doing more with less being able to utilize, you know, better decision making tools generated with, uh, you know, new information with every pass in the field. So, yeah, certainly I think, uh, smart implements is, is gonna be a big thing as we look forward in the future and, and, uh, certainly an opportunity for growers to, to increase their return investment and for, uh, equipment manufacturers to provide those solutions
Speaker 1:Coming back to one of the things that Kurt brought up right, is Kurt. You were beginning to touch a little bit on how business models are changing and, and really how we're beginning to see this, some of those things, right? Whether that's farmers adjusting to, you know, increases in emission or emission in regulations, things like that, elements of the connectivity gap, or, or even just how farming is goes about as a business. And so can you tell us a little bit about some of the things that came up out of that conversations as part of this project?
Speaker 2:Well, that's fair. I'm, I'm a farm kid from Missouri and farming, you know, as we've kind of alluded to before the general premise of farming, the business model of farming has not changed much really in the last, you know, century. Uh, really since the food revolutions, the market is ripe for disruption right now, new business models, whether that's how a farmer accesses their equipment or how they access the technology. I think we're, I think we're gonna see some, some different things show up. In fact, you're starting to see whether it's, uh, uh, investments that are being made by startup companies into things that are, you know, somebody could be considered novel here in the United States. Or if you look at other areas such as India, where there is a, a push for, uh, ways in which tractor ownership is changing, I think, you know, the, the future's wide open as to what that, what those business models are going to look like. I think those are driven really by a number of kind of underlying factors. And that's how we got to this particular point, uh, with the, with the futures council. One of those is, is if you look at the dollars that are flowing into food production right now from the investment community is astounding. They're flowing into those, you know, before the pandemic. But as grand alluded to earlier, the pandemic kind of put a bright, shiny spotlight on the ag industry, which is all of a sudden caused more money to focus in on agriculture. But you couple that with the environmental pressures that are being placed on the ag industry, and then you also, uh, add to that, just this idea that, uh, that investment dollars are always looking for industries where efficiencies can be gained largely because of the new technology. I think we're seeing that that's why this whole new business model really rises to the, to the, to the front of a, of a very interesting trend. I don't know what it's gonna look like. You can't point to one in particular, it's going to, uh, to, to, to make the, make the most of it. If that's, you know, carbon markets for a farmer to participate in, or a, a different way in which a, uh, a farmer accesses the, the, the tractor, or even the technology that may, may be off balance sheet, who knows that we do know that there's gonna be a lot, there's a lot of attention being paid to this right now, and it's gonna be different in the next 10 and 20 years and beyond.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And that was probably one of the biggest things that we saw, uh, in the discussions, or at least that I saw as a member of the panel and in the discussions was just really looking at how much, how land ownership models in both the developed and the developing world, how capital asset models in the developing world, how the service economy elements of things like sea and spray and elements of your consultant, your consultant, working with coordinated, smart equipment, working with the delivery of on time services and, and really the logistics challenges and opportunities that those present, and then how that begins to fit, whether that's for professional ownership or even some of the more public domain pieces and, and just a number of things there. Uh, how do you see it from the AGCO perspective? Are you, you seeing some of these trends grant?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I certainly think so, Mike, I mean, you touched on a lot of interesting points there, but I think, you know, the flexibility I think is, is gonna be the big thing, you know, I think flexibility and, and risk management too. I think as you look at, uh, farm operations, you know, it's certainly a, a high risk high reward business these days. I think as we see operations getting bigger, we see competition for land, you know, increasing in certain areas, especially with pressure. Um, like Kurt mentioned, you know, with different investors, you know, ownership models, uh, a lot of absentee landowners. So really there's a lot of pressure there to, to gain a return on investment. So things like guaranteed uptime, you know, uh, maybe power by the hour, new ownership models to support these things. And again, you know, going back to the labor issue that, uh, we're seeing on a lot of farms, you know, looking at how we can be smarter with how we work, you know, whether that's, uh, you know, gaining access to, to more machinery during peak times. Um, or if that machine comes with an operator, maybe through a contract service, things like that. And I think there's a lot of, lot of different, uh, opportunities as we look forward. And I think, um, again, you'll see those under underlying needs, uh, you know, met with the, the flexibility and, and hopefully some risk mitigation off offered for our growers as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And so grant, why don't you talk a little bit about, I mean, this is obviously a passionate opportunity for you. You've been involved in this effort of making this white paper for the last couple of years. If there was one thing that you really, uh, and unique insight that you got out of those 13 different trends, what, what jumped out at you?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, it, the whole, thing's been interesting to me, you know, Mike, and I think, like we said, there's a lot of underlying themes, but I think the real underlying theme for me is that agriculture will continue to adapt. We've got a growing population. I think I've heard statistics, you know, something along the lines of, we need to raise as much food between now and 2050 as we have for all of human history, just because of those multiplication effects. We've mentioned with protein consumption, uh, with the world population, you know, this is a big deal, a big challenge. So, you know, limited water resources, limited land resources, limited labor resources, um, especially trained labor. You know, we've got a, a big hill to climb and I'm sure that agriculture is going to rise to the challenge. Our farmers are gonna rise to the challenge. Our equipment manufacturers are gonna rise to the challenge to feed this growing population. So certainly that's what I'm passionate about to contributing to. And, and I think this, uh, uh, white paper does a great job of, uh, providing some thought provoking insights to, uh, to set the stage, to meet those challenges.
Speaker 2:Well, I'd say I've, I've two things. First is, uh, the one that was the frankly the biggest eye opener for me was how consistent everybody was on these divergent opinions, all coming together to agree on, uh, a few, uh, points that were very important. The one that rose to the top, the quickest was the biggest surprise to me was water scarcity. Uh, and how much of an impact that was going to have. And this was two years ago kind of before it started even making headlines in a big way with, uh, with the allocations we're seeing, even in California, you know, in the last, you know, two, three weeks. Uh, so that was a, that was one of the biggest surprises to me, but I would tell you the overarching thing that makes me very proud is I'm a farm kid from Missouri, and I get very passionate about this type of stuff. And, uh, it's very easy for me to look at this paper and say, this is difficult for those of us that are incumbents in the industry. Uh, equipment manufacturers say, this is gonna change our world. And you know, it's not gonna be business as usual, man. I look at the complete opposite way and I love the conversations around sustainability and using technology to feed the population in a very sustainable way, because we've got this. And if you think about how exciting it is to see how much change is happening, just right on the cusp of, uh, you know, 5, 10, 20 years from now, this industry's gonna look very different. And it's very exciting for those of us that are, you know, have been involved in agriculture, all of our lives. And we've been waiting for this moment to finally have a reason to, to prove that we've got the, uh, we're up for the challenge. And I think all of our manufacturers are excited to kind of get behind some of these trends, some of these ideas to say that this is not a challenge, uh, that we're gonna take lightly, but it's one that we're gonna approach with enthusiasm, and we're gonna approach it with, uh, with the right amount of, uh, of, of thought because the technology does allow us to do some pretty amazing things.
Speaker 4:We've been talking about AEM, the future of food production, white paper. And if you'd like to get your own copy to learn more about the 13 different trends, you can visit Topcon positioning.com/future of food. That's Topcon, positioning.com/future of food
Speaker 1:Edge. Certainly like to thank both of our guests, both grant good from AGCO, as well as Kurt blades from the association of equipment manufacturers and AEM. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please remember to like share and subscribe to Topcon tops, agriculture on Spotify, apple podcast, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcast.